Rallyx/ice racer

[chuckracer442]

Ok posting at 330 forgive the confusion if this doesn't make sense, I brought an ice virgin with me today and he is hooked. He wants to buy and build a studded car for next year. I told him why build a car just for ice racing, lets build a car for scca rally x and ice racing. He loved the idea, now I'm starting my homework, what cars (on a reasonable budget) are recommended for Grassroot racers in rally x. I noticed alot of Golfs and Crx's running studs today leading me to believe those may be the budget cars to have, but I'm not dumb, sometimes what shows up with a cold air intake at an auto cross can run with the big boys with further mods than that little CAI and look like a foot note on FVSCC's history

[marky967]

pretty much all the vw's there are used just as track cars or ice cars. and they arent exactly budget built either.. we all have a ton of money stuffed in them. people run the honda's and vw's because we can easily fit a 13" menards studded tire in them.

best thing would be is to wait and find one already set up for events like this if your on a tight budget. you usualy cant buy and build a car as cheap as you can buy one already done for.

as far as a car with a intake beating the big boys... its more driver skill than anything. Hille can come to an auto-x with his honda hybrid or evo, and still kill all the competition.

[Dizmm]

driver skill and tires. its all about smart modding. oh and racing and budget dont go together to well.

[SgtRauksauff]

You just need one tool, it's a wrench, to continually tighten the loose nut behind the wheel..

Almost any car will do, but choose one with readily available, inexpensive parts. Or, one that you can easily rob parts off of your other cars to replace.

It was a hair over 200 bucks for my bolted tires. 130 for the bolts, 20 for the adhesive, and about 60 for the sharpener. That and a few hours, you can put any car onto the ice and have silly grins on your face, laughing the whole time you're in the car. Hell, just rubber is a blast, but with studs you get the whole surrealism aspect. It just shouldn't be physically possible!!

--sarge

[Hille]

Hille can come to an auto-x with his honda hybrid or evo, and still kill all the competition.

I wish. Ha ha. Thanks.

What kind of car does your friend drive now Chuck442? Will he be at next Sunday's event with it?

No need to have a seperate car for doing timed events if you are on a budget. Just make sure there is enough $$$ for track time. That's the most important thing to be spending the money on.

[justin]

FWIW, I am a set of studded tires away from doing the same thing w/ my Miata. AutoX in the summer, ice in winter.

[chuckracer442]

I tried talkin him into runnin his current car next weekend, but he insists that he wants to build a car, but obviously doesn't want to spend 30,000 on a rally sti, but if there is a competitve recommended car like the 89 civic si is for autox, thats what I was asking about

[Dizmm]

never do a build as a rookie.

[JDL1527]

You just need one tool, it's a wrench, to continually tighten the loose nut behind the wheel..



There is the wrench that sarge uses

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdl1527/4323302879/" title="FVSCC Ice RallyCross January 31th 2010 by jdl1527, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4323302879_f77305fb63_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="FVSCC Ice RallyCross January 31th 2010" /></a>

[chuckracer442]

lol love the pic

[SgtRauksauff]

lol!! Excellent shot! :)

[Hille]

LOL. So what torque setting do you use to tighten the nut behind the wheel Sarge?

[Hille]

I tried talkin him into runnin his current car next weekend, but he insists that he wants to build a car, but obviously doesn't want to spend 30,000 on a rally sti, but if there is a competitve recommended car like the 89 civic si is for autox, thats what I was asking about

Arrgghhh. This guy is going about this wrong. He should run his car next weekend as is. Start participating then start thinking about building a car.

Next week Monday post event we can talk about it some more.

[the-moss]

LOL. So what torque setting do you use to tighten the nut behind the wheel Sarge?

Sarge torques A LOT!!

[SgtRauksauff]

Yesterday, I was somewhere in the neighborhood of 111 lb-ft.

--sarge

[JDL1527]

There, lightened up the shot a bit so you can see his face better

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdl1527/4323302879/" title="FVSCC Ice RallyCross January 31th 2010 by jdl1527, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4323302879_f77305fb63_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="FVSCC Ice RallyCross January 31th 2010" /></a>

[austin]

yeah tell him to run whatever car he has. thats what i do and all i have is a toyota tercel with all season tires. its still a blast

[chuckracer442]

it doesn't help that he wants me to help teach him how to drive and by building this car together i have a partner in a decent rallyx car lol, something that we can start smart modding, be competitive in class, and have a new blast of a car. Good news is, my friend may now race next time I can make it (army drills etc) as long as I take him out to the new track and start to teach him how to drive on ice. I didn't realize some guys think it takes tons of practice to show up for a first event lol

[Dizmm]

the best car in the world won’t make you competitive (Especially on the ice), it’s the driver that will.

[chuckracer442]

I am aware of that on ice andy, considering my car vs. an evo X is a minor difference, I was more wondering in terms of rally cross, I've done my fair share of stupid stuff that cost me excess money when getting into racing, ex: the cold air intake (recommended by auto zone to the previous owner) to gain power, although minute power increase, bumped me up to a class with guys who did headers etc. that my car would not be as competitive in auto x, now as I venture into rally cross I wanted to start my path off right with getting a competitive car for its class. This idea of budget is in terms of how an 89 civic si hatch is fast for its class and high on the adjusted times, I still plan on running my car for a couple rallycross events first

[SgtRauksauff]

"I know, but...."
Famous last words of people that don't listen to the advice they're given!! (I've used them myself many times.)

Depends what rallyX sanctioning body you go with, and what their classes are. Chances are 'competitive' means you should get an STI or an EVO, or suitably new high-priced cars for whichever class you want to run in. "budget build" does not fit into that equation.

I say, take what you got.
Remove or disconnect the swaybars. Suspension travel is key, as it keeps the tires in contact with the ground. Body roll is a GOOD thing!!!!
Take it to some rallyXes.
As you tighten the nut, also find where the car's weak spots are.
THEN make them better. Start saving now, and when you find the issues, use that money then, instead of wasting it on some 'super hotrod' that you'll just wreck because of driver error.

Things to consider: underbody protection can be a handy thing, especially if one tends to drive off course. You know what sandblasting is, right? Well, consider the underbody of your car to be an open target for that. Protect what needs protecting. (brake lines, fuel lines, filters, belts, cables, etc.)
Suspenders are good things. ground clearance is handy to have. Stock spring rates are generally nearly spot-on. If you're spending cash, get some LONGER springs, for more travel, provided your struts can handle the travel as well.
Hitting hard bumps puts a toll on strut mounts and bushings. If those are strong, the shockwaves start to pull apart rusty metal.

For this kind of event, money spent NEEDS to go towards dependability FIRST, not 'performance'.

--sarge

[chuckracer442]

"I know, but...."
Famous last words of people that don't listen to the advice they're given!! (I've used them myself many times.)

Depends what rallyX sanctioning body you go with, and what their classes are. Chances are 'competitive' means you should get an STI or an EVO, or suitably new high-priced cars for whichever class you want to run in. "budget build" does not fit into that equation.

I say, take what you got.
Remove or disconnect the swaybars. Suspension travel is key, as it keeps the tires in contact with the ground. Body roll is a GOOD thing!!!!
Take it to some rallyXes.
As you tighten the nut, also find where the car's weak spots are.
THEN make them better. Start saving now, and when you find the issues, use that money then, instead of wasting it on some 'super hotrod' that you'll just wreck because of driver error.

Things to consider: underbody protection can be a handy thing, especially if one tends to drive off course. You know what sandblasting is, right? Well, consider the underbody of your car to be an open target for that. Protect what needs protecting. (brake lines, fuel lines, filters, belts, cables, etc.)
Suspenders are good things. ground clearance is handy to have. Stock spring rates are generally nearly spot-on. If you're spending cash, get some LONGER springs, for more travel, provided your struts can handle the travel as well.
Hitting hard bumps puts a toll on strut mounts and bushings. If those are strong, the shockwaves start to pull apart rusty metal.

For this kind of event, money spent NEEDS to go towards dependability FIRST, not 'performance'.

--sarge

Thanks for the advice with the underbody and suspension, I am planning on conforming to SCCA rules, I'm just tired of showing up in a car that was classed in a ridiculously high class and not being able to be competitive. From other research I have been doing we are looking into a CRX to run either FWD Stock or FWD prepared class depending on how we feel about the car after a few events. I know that the parts are fairly reasonable to help with repairs etc. But We did not take into consideration undercarriage protection. I don't want a super hot rod for the reason you posted. I want a low class competitive car. STI and Evo's are out of budget currently, but I think a CRX for 1000 isn't with a little TLC we can have some fun and be in a fun class. I like to think of an article I read about Brian Redman doing a test on a racing miata and a Porsche Racecar from the early 90s. He got out of the Porsche and gave is analysis on the suspension etc, he got out of the miata and said "now thats just some plain old fun right there." I think thats why I enjoy running stock classes with most of my cars. With some decent rubber, good brake pads, and proper maintenance I seem to be able to be competitive. I have been burned in the past by having troubles with not being able to be competitive because my car is over classed or a dominant car is under classed. I do take into consideration the driving skill always needs to get better, but at a shooting competition a bow and arrow just wont do. On an even playing field it helps me to find where the starting bar is and figure out where it can go.

[devlish]

be careful on "building a car to race with a buddy"... aski Dizzm or myself how that turns out. lots of building, not a lot of driving!! tell your buddy to take the advice of all the above posters... start with what he's already got, or... buy something that is runningand is cheap, with readily available parts, and get out there and drive for a year first!!! then if he's still hooked, take it to the next level.

my $.02

[Hille]

All this talk about a budget and no $$ figures.

So what is the "budget"?

$2,000,000?
$200,000?
$20,000?
$2,000?
$200?

[chuckracer442]

About the $3000 range, were thinking about 1500 for car, 700 in maintenance (Tires, Pads, Tires) shooting for the Rally prepared class to about 800 in mods. Thats why I was asking about CRX's, we have determined that the lightweight chasis of a honda product mixed with its reliability and decent weight will be a strong starting point, we'll keep everyone updated, mission one is to find a car

[justin]

want a miata?

:D

[Colin255]

There are three keys to success here:

1. Find something you can afford that is turbocharged and all wheel drive - Preferably a real pile, think late 80's early 90's
2. Don't race a car you care about.
3. Don't like your race car.

Have fun!

[chuckracer442]

CRX For the win their colin lol, except the AWD class, we are waiting for us to make bank one day in the future, I think we all have been saying that though, but yeah, FWD Rally Prepared from SCCA, miata for about 1000?!?!? now i'm curious dude

[PoisonBeef]

I heard a drag builder once say, "the trick to having fast times at the strip is to make sure the driver doesn't pay for the repairs"

or something like that.

[oddballmazda]

Its true, I wont push my mazda to the max, but the trucks at work, I always seem to be the one finding their week points and breaking them or blowing transmissions.

[chuckracer442]

I want your job dude!!! lol

[Colin255]

Also, don't bother building anything to the SCCA's rallycross rules unless you plan on going to a national rallycross event, around here we don't really follow them. Picking an SCCA solo class will keep the car multi-purpose, but if you ask me none of those classes really make any sense either.

So in other words do what you want and deal with the consequences, or lie about it.

[chuckracer442]

Also, don't bother building anything to the SCCA's rallycross rules unless you plan on going to a national rallycross event, around here we don't really follow them. Picking an SCCA solo class will keep the car multi-purpose, but if you ask me none of those classes really make any sense either.

So in other words do what you want and deal with the consequences, or lie about it.

lol true it just bothers me when I race against people who cheat and I try to stay honest, but its good to know about the classing around here, one day I would love to try to go to nationals though

[JDL1527]

Random and off topic but look what I just found in my photos

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdl1527/4331177497/" title="IMG_4590_080817 by jdl1527, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/4331177497_51c9580ba2_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_4590_080817" /></a>

[chuckracer442]

:) but sad panda I miss that baby, she was fun, but thanks to insurance I can't afford to replace her because I am still paying her off, its painful to pay for a car you no longer own.

[Hille]

lol true it just bothers me when I race against people who cheat and I try to stay honest,

Who? Examples?

If you do not want to or haven't exposed a cheater then don't complain about it.

[Colin255]

Sarcasm intended. My bad.

[Hille]

Bad Colin. LOL.

[Dizmm]

I cheat. I found a nail in one of my tires the other day. i should have been in the studded class.

[chuckracer442]

I never said anyone in the club cheats, when I go visit local dirt tracks and my driver is up against a known cheating driver it bothers me, so I always figure if I police myself and have strong integrity, my victories will be sweeter, sorry I just realized I do cheat, I have that FVSCC sticker in my window, definitely adds ten horsepower

[2.5GT Limited]

I cheat. i should have been in the studded class.

Fixed...

LOL!!! Why does this not surprise me?

[STI 2004]

Cheaters guide to ice racing:

1). Install AWD system in 2WD car. Be careful on launching but after that no one will notice.
2). Retread all season tires with snow tread. I don't see any snow flakes on the side wall
3). Retractable spikes. Only use in night racing and have them set to release away from the start finish line.
4). I'm sure there are more things. Lets hear some more ideas from any guys with experience :)

[SgtRauksauff]

have a method to continually release air from your tires, so they get increasingly more grip as you go through the course.

oh, wait.. TK, aren't the VelcroTires™ set up that way???

--sarge

[JDL1527]

have a method to continually release air from your tires, so they get increasingly more grip as you go through the course.

oh, wait.. TK, aren't the VelcroTires™ set up that way???

--sarge

Nice!

[oddballmazda]

You could set up a airplane jet engine in your trunk and when your at the far end of the track, hit the button, and SPEED!

[STI 2004]

You could set up a airplane jet engine in your trunk and when your at the far end of the track, hit the button, and SPEED!

Or melt the ice with the jet engine so the next competitor has a little ice hole to deal with.

[Colin255]

Come on now, the lack of rules is what makes FVSCC ice racing great.

On that note I'll be rigging up movable ballast and ground effects in the Audi tonight.

[Millertime21]

I am certainly new to racing but i know when not to run my mouth. I sit back and watch Andy,Tom,Dale,Ken,and Kyle race and i just see how they act and thats the way everyone should act. I like racing and i respect others who have done this for a while. Why cant we all just get along!! lol

[Kiesgen117]

I cheat. I found a nail in one of my tires the other day. i should have been in the studded class.

LOL, nice! lil do these people bolting tires know, nails are the way to go!

[STI 2004]

The other part of racing: healthy dose of bantering with your fellow enthusiast and helping anyone who needs help.

Hence the cheat list.:)

[SgtRauksauff]

yeah, if You're coming this weekend, we'll ALL need to cheat just to stay within 10 seconds of you!

[oddballmazda]

How come no one has said anything about NOS. lol. Those guys in fast and the furious did it. Although I guess that would mean you would need to cut out your floor boards and loosely bolt in some diamond plate in place of it. And you need a motec exhaust system. jk
:D

[STI 2004]

How come no one has said anything about NOS. lol. Those guys in fast and the furious did it. Although I guess that would mean you would need to cut out your floor boards and loosely bolt in some diamond plate in place of it. And you need a motec exhaust system. jk
:D

Oh, I just installed the NOS, how did you know. Rumors spread real quick these days.

NOS on All season tires is the latest trend from Canada.

[Hille]

Although I guess that would mean you would need to cut out your floor boards and loosely bolt in some diamond plate in place of it.

Doesn't everyone do this? Really.

[Hille]

NOS on All season tires is the latest trend from Canada.

Those damn Canadians. j/k

[chuckracer442]

Well I admit I cheat, I lightened my muffler pully and bearings, I'm running synthetic blinker fluid, and I reprogrammed the carbeurator on my car so that I can get more power. And don't even get me started on explaining how I my tires turn like speed racer for maximum turning lol